V8 Supercars - are they even related to the factory car anymore ?

[Darren]

I was watching the V8 Supercars the other weekend. Ch7 did a segment where they show what makes a V8 Supercar and what parts differ between the Holden & Ford. Now I realise over the years V8 Supercars have drifted a long way from their road going cousins, but at least the body shell was still Holden or Ford.

But not anymore it would seem.... The chassis and integrated roll cage are now built ground up independant of the body shell, using box section steel - just like a Nascar. The only original part of the factory floor pan they utilise is the transmission tunnel, which is welded into the frame. The rest is completely fabricated.

I was aware that a couple of years ago carbon fibre front guards were introduced (I suspect the original motivation was so that the Falcon could use flared front guards like the VE has from factory.....). That was bad enough. But I noticed the other weekend that door skins and rear quarter panels are also carbon fibre.....

So what is left of these so called production based cars ? We all love it when a Holden wins, but the bottom line is a Chev powered race car, that shares the same chassis and all other driveline components and suspension with it's rival Ford has won the race. Just like the Nascars, the car resembles it's road going cousin, but there is little, if anything at all apart from visual appearance that it shares in common.

I personally think they have stuffed the series. We don't want Nascars, we want genuine production based sedans battling it out.

I'm not at all against modifications to keep it exciting and to keep the cars safe & durable, but body shell and chassis at the very least should remain 90% as the manufacuter intended. Some strengthening and modication to wheel wells to accomodate wider rubber ok. But as far as I'm concerned the majority of the original floor pan should remain. Engines I still believe should remain based on the factory engine. Any engine capacity advantage a manufacturer has (eg Holden 6L vs Ford 5.6) could be levelled up by some sort of handicap system like the weight penalty used in the old Group A rules. Suspension should still use original mounting points as per Group A rules. Of course safety components likes brakes, roll cages etc should be modified as required. And body shell should remain original manufacturers panels, apart from the aero kit. If Fords don't come out with flared front guards like the VE, then tough luck, they don't get them

I reckon this would bring back some of the grass roots of what was once a very uniquely Australian category of racing. The way I see it heading, we are just going to end up with an Australian variant of Nascar racing.

[drunk_kev]

i can not agree more with you Darren...

even if they run STOCK engines... now that would get interesting.....

Wincup was on the radio disussing the swap from ford to holden, They ask if it will be a big change and he said "No, the car will remain about 85% the same"

that to me just shows that all we are watching are the same car with 2 different badges running around the track...

hit them with the group A rules like darren said, it'll make things alot more interesting,

5 stud axels, macpherson struts, factory rims, factory engine and gearboxes..

[Mark]

I agree with all that your saying, but I believe that the cars of today have evolved over the years to appease the race fans. The issue that always arises from a more production based style of racing is "parity". How do you take a 6.0L Commodore with the obvious engine advantage and a 5.6L Falcon with two totally different car shapes that have different aero characterisitcs and create an even playing field? Over the years they have continuosly struggled with this. Holdens are winning and the Ford crowd cry "parity", Fords are winning and visa versa. Which as I say, over the years, has brought us to where a V8 Supercar is today.
I still don't think we are quite at Nascar standards yet, as stated, at least V8 Supercars do look like it's road going equivelant, unlike a Nascar "Camry". Personally I'm not a fan of production racing as such, watching factory based V8 Commodore and Falcons battling with WRX's and EVO's trying to get past the Protons that are in the way is kinda boring, just my opinion. There's plenty of it still going on in the form of a National championship but I don't know any real fans of it, I'm sure there are some though. From what I understand the "V8 Supercar of the future" that Skaife and team are devising will be even more different again, things like say a 4.0L DOHC V8 engine maybe!!...Sure in reality the current V8 Supercar really isn't anything like what we drive ourselves but if you look all around the world you will find that the best forms of motorsport are the highly modified versions of their road going variants, Nascar, DTM series, British Touring Car Championship and WRC cars to name a few. I for one am a big V8 Supercar fan, sure it's not perfect at times but it is one of the best racing series around....Just my thoughts...
Cheers
Mark

[CRAIG]

I agree with you Mark if you want to watch ford V's Holden in sort of stock format watch the Utes the only thing that I recon should happen is that the v8 super car teams make cheaper go fast bits for our cars and then they wouldn't cry so much that the series is costing a shit load of money to run

[Carbon]

Just my 2c.

I love the V8 supercars and I think most people recognise that there isn't really anything in common between my VE and the race car variant. What we can associate with is that the car 'looks' like my car. From what I understand the VE race car is actually shorter than the road going version.

I do agree that we are heading too much towards NASCAR and that series bores me stupid. My mates give me a hrad time about watching motor racing and the cars 'just going around and around' (say it in the Gordon Murray accent from the 12th Man). But that's nothing compared to watching them go around and around an oval track. Maybe the yanks couldn't cope with more bends...... :p

As for production racing I think it's great and there should be more of it. I think its a better representation of a Ford v Holden battle. What I would really love to see is a series that sort of copies the old days where Holden/HSV and Ford/FPV would have to make and produce a car that they can sell that they race. My favourite HSV is a VN SS Group A. Look at the sales that the HSV and FPV have now. I dont think they would have any problems selling a car that is purpose built for a race series.

As I said, just my 2c

[drunk_kev]

As for production racing I think it's great and there should be more of it. I think its a better representation of a Ford v Holden battle. What I would really love to see is a series that sort of copies the old days where Holden/HSV and Ford/FPV would have to make and produce a car that they can sell that they race. My favourite HSV is a VN SS Group A. Look at the sales that the HSV and FPV have now. I dont think they would have any problems selling a car that is purpose built for a race series.

As I said, just my 2c

the bathurst 12hour is a good race for the Ford v Holden battle... running the production cars flat chat for 12 hours is good to watch.......

i agree, if Holden/HSV and Ford/FPV made road going race cars they would no trouble selling them at all

[Mark]

Great in theory but again, my point is that lets assume of course that Holden/HSV build a far better road/race production car than Ford/FPV do, then who's going to watch a race series where the Holden/HSV wins all the time..I know, lets modify the HSV so it's fairer and the FPV has a chance, and so the process begins and you end up with V8 Supercars..I must admit that I do enjoy watching some of the Bathurst 12 hour production racing..

[Darren]

Great in theory but again, my point is that lets assume of course that Holden/HSV build a far better road/race production car than Ford/FPV do, then who's going to watch a race series where the Holden/HSV wins all the time..I know, lets modify the HSV so it's fairer and the FPV has a chance, and so the process begins and you end up with V8 Supercars..I must admit that I do enjoy watching some of the Bathurst 12 hour production racing..

but as I suggested, the disparity in engine capacity (Holden 6L vs Ford 5.6L) could be levelled up with a handicap system, either with weight penalty (as per the old Grp A rules) or like the ute series where the Holdens run a restrictor in the throttle body. It worked in the old Grp A system, and it works with the utes.
That way the cars would have similar performance, without having to clone chassis, suspension setups etc. And lets be honest, the Ford can cut it with the Holden if it has similar engine performance (keeping in mind the Holden has an additional 400cc)

I reckon the main reason the series has remained so popular, is people either kid themselves into believing the cars we see out there are a true representation of the factory car, or they simply don't realise how far these race cars have evolved from a factory car into a purpose built race car. Personally I've lost a lot of passion for the series for this reason. It really did disappoint me when I discovered all the additional carbon fibre panels and completely fabricated chassis these things are running now. Commodore or Falcon ? - not even close! It's become more about supporting a driver/team than the car - which is never what the series was about.

[VP Pursuit]

I have to agree with regards to the above comments relating to the V8's......The Utes are actually really cheap to run becasue they are factory so factory when I was at Indy 2 years ago as a Fire mashall, some of the guys running the utes went to the Holden dealer and wreckers to get a few repalcment pannels and parts.

As for NSACA, although they go 400m then left then 200m then left then 400m then left on a banked track as you may have seen there can be some spectacular crash's and it is apparently quite hard to keep these cars on the track running at 10K RPM....So I do feel that in some cases it can be interesting and there are also now some races that have right turns as well as left....

I do prefer watching the utes over any other event simperly because the rules allow for the bump and scrap and the utes are so close to factory. The V8's do still have some fire particually when you look at the fact that although they have same parts for most of the car you can have a Ford do a lap in 2:15 for example but have the same driver on the same track in a ford from another team and run a 2:30....so the game has more or less come down to A) who can set it up best and B) which driver has the biggest brass balls.